All the People claiming high sec has more risk are idiots. You have ivincible super police to protect you along with EHP buffs, multiple suicide ganking nerfs and cheap logistics. That sea of blue you whine about it requires a lot of effort to maintain and the logistics required to support mining in nullsec are insane. You're able to happily go afk and easily get 100% refine rates with little effort while nullsec dwellers have to bust their buttes to get anything mining related done. The risk : reward for highsec is way off and needs to be fixed. There should be far less reward in highsec or far more in low/null/wh.

^^: Read that post Pipa hit a bunch of good things.



That fallacy thing you really should research it before you decide to try and use it .

It is a risk : reward problem. In highsec can you be hot dropped? In highsec can you be bubbled? In highsec can roaming gangs comprised of people who have not wardeced you shoot you without concord retaliation? In high sec do you have to use jump freighters/rorquals to move your minerals/ore? In highsec do you have battleship rats in the belts/sites? In highsec can you be bombed? In highsec do you have to use ridiculous methods that CCP disdains (gun compression) to move your minerals in a less pain inducing format? In highsec do you have to interact with any other group of rival players to guarantee a modicum of safety? In highsec are you required to run intel channels to operate efficiently?

The answer to all of the above is no and they are all good reason why the risk : reward dynamic of nullsec mining is way off balance when compared to highsec mining. The risk for nullsec mining is way higher than the reward and the risk for highsec mining is way lower than the reward.

Did it ever cross your mind that CCP designs the game but is not omniscient and does not see all of the consequences of their changes right away? CCP makes mistakes (often) when making alterations and this risk : reward problem is a huge example of that. Furthermore the "sandbox" does nothing it is an abstract concept used to define the bounds of operating in the game, it cannot fix anything.

The only thing I'm willing to call nullsec miners is lazy and that's because they are not actively campagining against the total BS that is the high reward and nearly non-existant risk of highsec mining.

I should address this too because I know there will be whining about it. The "sea of blue" that is constantly whined about requires massive social effort to maintain and is crucial to being a sov holding alliance in nullsec. Whining about "sea's of blue" is basically screaming NERF MAKING FRIENDS! Highsec people are perfectly capable of creating intel channels and "sea's of blue" around them as well but it requires effort and that seems to be something that highsec people will not have anything to do with.

In general, the problem with nullsec mining being terrible is that it doesn't give an incentive for industrial types to move to null. The existing residents of null (i.e. us) don't give a damn because no one mines unless they're at least quad-boxing and the rest of us have all gotten used to doing something other than mining for income. Mining has already been terrible for the last few years--mainly due to the old drone mechanics, ease of botting, and t1 loot drops. This isn't a "waaaah I'm not making enough cash" problem; it is a "this is a bad setup for the game in the long-term" problem.


No one was misled--you were just wrong and smug about it because you are a moron.

Those are not the original values, they are far more recent values used in insurance (accounting for the increased value of low ends). The initial values that the game started with (and which was enforced by npc buy orders at first) were;

Tritanium - 1 isk
Pyerite - 4 isk
Mexallon - 16 isk
Isogen - 64 isk
Nocxium - 256 isk
Zydrine - 1024 isk
Megacite - 4096 isk

And the prices were relatively near this for a long long time. When i actually mined back in 2005 or whatever omber was the big deal because isogen had broken the 80 isk barrier. Zydrine was the first real bottleneck, it pushed 3k at one point iirc.

Easy access to high ends through 0.0 colonisation, drone region addition etc along with the massive need of low ends for cap/super cap proliferation has broken this completely.

So trit is 6 times its initial value, pyr and mex 3-4 times their initial value, iso and nocx 1.5-2 times their initial value and zydrine/magacyte half thier initial value. Broken? hell yes.

All that you say is true, except of course that we are working within ccps parameters. They set the mineral values for ships and mods, not the players. Ccp added demand for low ends (capitals, supers), and continue to do so. If the next fotm class of ships they intoroduce are high end heavy that will adjust the balance (will need a lot to make up for caps though . Due to the rather dubious way ships are built demand has no real effect. Most ships use the same sort of ratios of each mineral so customer choice has little impact (this apoc made of trit is too expensive i will buy this geddon made of megacyte). And if you are going to get a cap ship you gonna pay for alot of low ends whatever.

I am also pretty sure i covered your other point with "colonisation of null sec"....

If all things were equal, I would agree with you. Fact is they aren't. There is no Arkonor in highsec. The skills are easier to train for empire ores over null ores. The materials to build ships and the ships that are available are not provided by players. It is ALL provided by CCP. Therefore, CCP needs to balance the ores.

This game is great for it's market system and supply and demand but don't for a second think it is a reflection of free market economics. All of those arguments really don't hold the weight people keep repeating them think they do.

So nerf one groups income so the other group can make more isk sounds a bit ya know R3TARDED

seriously if you want high ends to stop dropping like stones GTFO out of null less supply = greater demand = better prices ccp shouldnt fix this as its a player driven economy and should be left alone

let the players fix it

The issue at hand is Risk vs. Reward - and this is a system that needs to be monitored and adjusted by CCP as outcomes to their system that they don't forsee arise.

It's interesting to see that there are still people who believe the current mineral prices are completely driven by player activities and completely ignore the changes to the game that drove those changes. The players are reacting to a change CCP made to other systems, and due to the complexity of eve an unfortunate outcome has arisen. Its players that place the buy/sell orders but its CCP that creates the system that drives the players.

Here is a relative value chart of ores based on current prices. The value is relative to the lowest valued ore. The numbers come from a break down of the mineral componenents of each ore type and are updated based on mineral values. I use this tool to tell me what to mine on a given day.

Take note that mining High End Scordite is just as valuable as Standard Arkonor.


Here is the same chart with prices from Pre-Incursion / Drone Nerf / T1 Loot revamp. The skew is towards the nullsec ores maintining a reasonable risk-reward scale.



edit * Actually this second value scale is really a perfect example of how it should look. Even the low-sec ores provide a benefit to the miner, but not quite as much as the nullsec ones. And the hardest to find ore - arkonor - is the king. It was brilliant.

PS - When was the last time you used a titan fleet to aquire a mineral belt in empire the way alliances claim -1.0 truesec systems in null? So dont even try to pretend nullsec mining is less work.

Industry that is non-highsec is broken your points are invalid.

So you're saying that anything CCP hasn't bothered to fix in years is not broken? Simply because CCP hasn't bothered to fix it.

You claimed that Nullsec Industry wasn't broken because CCP hadn't said it was.
I showed that CCP had in fact said it was.

You post.... whatever this is.


By the way, the biggest problem with Nullsec Ore production is that the Ore is produced in fixed ratios due to the need to cycle sites to keep the industry level up. There's no "mine less Spud 'cause it's worthless," or "Mine Less Bistot*"

*Bistot is 32.2% of the Large Asteroid Cluster by volume. The Large Asteroid Cluster is generally what you cycle.

Where did I say it did?


In 272, you claimed that Nullsec miners have "Pricing Power." Where's your evidence to support that? The fact that it takes effort to bring your product to market does not magically give you "Pricing Power"